I woke up early Monday morning January 28, 2008 and found that I could not post on ATS. I then checked my U2's and found the following post from Bill Irvine. It concerned my post on page 10 of the " Michael Horns Billy Meier [HOAX] photos from C2C tonight".

Here is Bill's U2 to me and all subsequent email exchanges.

I have been post banned ever since except for several hours Sunday morning (February 2, 2008) when I tried to bring the truth to ATS about the incident.

I am adding no comment whatsoever to this exchange.

You can figure it out for yourself.

On Jan 28, 2008, at 10:24 AM, John Lear wrote:

Bill and Mark,

My U2 function has been disabled.

I find it extremely unfortunate and embarrassing that you would think that I would falsify a post for any reason. Every one of those quotes is from that thread. Both of you and the mods are certainly quick to jump on Sleeper and me for the slightest transgression but Ritzmann and Biedny can obviously get away with violations of the T&C without a problem.

When you find those quotes, which I have been keeping track of, in that thread I want your email to mail to begin with:

John,
Please accept our apologies for thinking you might have falsified a post.

Please let me know if you need help finding those comments. Again, they are in that one thread.

Thanks,

John Lear

From Bill Irvine:
 

Hi John... Your U2U function should be working fine. I've not done anything to prevent you from sending U2U's. In any event, I and several mods went through the quotes and have been unable to locate most of them... for example... "You're not getting another goddamned reply." (jritzmann) You can search the entire site(s) for that quote with this lnk: http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&rls=en&q=%22not+getting +another+goddamned+reply%22+jritzmann&btnG=Search -- or this one: "I'm done with his sorry ass and this case" (jritzmann) Search link: http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&rls=en&q=%22done+with+his +sorry+ass+and+this+case%22+jritzmann&btnG=Search The only time we locate any of the statements attributed to Ritzmann or Biedny is within your post. (with the exception of two) I'm sorry you're feeling embarrassed about this, which is why we've not done anything that would be visible in a public way about your post or our need to have a look. If you can help us determine what is going on, that'd be a hugh help. Thanks, Bill

On Jan 28, 2008, at 10:57 AM, John Lear wrote:

Bill,

With much respect, do you honestly think I would falsify those quotes? Have I EVER falsified anything? Here is the master list of insults I received on that thread. I keep them in a Word file:

"ANY yutz with functioning eyes and brain can take one look" (David Biedny)

"Only the most gullible yokels find this "case" to be compelling" (David Biedny)

"…you'd have to be stupid to find this image convincing." (David Biedny)

"…but there's no fool like an old fool." (David Biedny)

"Give me a f&*$^ break!" (MANNYP4)

"By arguing with morons" (jritzmann)

"You're not getting another goddamned reply." (jritzmann)

"I'm done with his sorry ass and this case" (jritzmann)

"…this case is hogwash...you're an idiot" (jritzmann)

"They want to lap up the pap spewed by the son of the jetman?" (David Biedny)

"…anyone putting any stock in this crap is an idiot." (jritzmann)

"I cannot believe the balls these people got." (jritzmann)

"My work in debunking this crap is well known." (jritzmann)

"…stop being such a B.S'.er." (jritzmann)

I am not able to access ATS or I would look. This quote:

"You're not getting another goddamned reply." (jritzmann)

Was the last post that Ritzmann made yesterday. If the above quotes are not in that thread then somebody has clearly erased them. There should be a way (and I don’t know how) to find who did and why.

Did I falsify those quotes? Absolutely not.

John Lear

From Bill Irvine:
 

Hi John... I completely understand your concern and sincerely want to resolve this and find where these statements are being made so that we can take appropriate action... which was how our staff first approached your post. But as we began to look for these statements to ascertain whether or not a warn or other action was appropriate, we simply couldn't find most of them. That being said, I'm sure you can understand our concern and the concern of our staff. Also, please, there is a well-established method for alerting staff to posts you believe violate the Terms & Conditions, and we've show time and time again that we respond to such alerts, and take appropriate action when action is needed. There are few things we take more seriously than the civil decorum of the discussions we host. Any help you can provide in tracking down these statements will be greatly appreciated. Bill

From Bill Irvine:
 

John... Please don't jump to conclusions. We're trying to track these down via the Google cache to ascertain if they've been posted, then soon removed by the post author. Any guidance you can give us as to which page and/or post will be a tremendous help. Bill

On Jan 28, 2008, at 11:30 AM, John Lear wrote:

I did not falsify these quotes. They were transferred to Word to use when I was ready. I would suggest that you start a thread something like:

Did John Lear Falsify These Quotes?

Tell that I have been banned for posting quotes that were allegedly not made and to be fair to John we are asking if ANYBODY every saw these quotes EVER in that thread. This is the only fair way, to both you and me, to find out what is going on.

There is obvious subterfuge going on here. Somebody has clearly edited those posts. What I posted as quotes was exactly how I copied them. Ask yourself this Bill: Have you ever known John Lear to do anything like this EVER at ATS?

From Bill Irvine:
 

John... There's no reason for this to be a public debacle while we sort this out (BTW -- similar posting bans have been applied to Ritzmann and Biedny). The reality of the situation is that our staff would like to take the appropriate action, especially given that this may involve two experts for which we've accorded special privilege, but we cannot find those statements and need your help. It's that simple. Bill

On Jan 28, 2008, at 11:39 AM, John Lear wrote:

They were from many pages. There are not that many pages in the thread, I think there were 9. Be sure nobody can edit the archive if it exists. Since you don’t know who the mole is I would suggest you take the time to do the search yourself.

If and when you find out who did this I hope that you will deal with it with the seriousness it warrants. Obviously someone is protecting Ritzmann and Biedny.

I copied those quotes yesterday and I believe they went back to page 3. This means that the date which is on page 3 is how long many of those posts were on the thread.

Let me know.

John

From Bill Irvine:
 

Hi John... Short of a well-paid international team of the best hackers on the planet, there's no way to alter the data contained in Google's Index.  Can I ask why you simply didn't alert myself or Mark... or even use the post alert button for that matter? Bill

 On Jan 28, 2008, at 12:00 PM, John Lear wrote:

Bill,

I rarely bother you guys with minor insults. They are common in any thread to do with Billy Meiers. I only alert Mark if its something really serious.

 I leave minor stuff like Ritzmann and Biedny insults because it tells more about the way that they operate and how they conduct themselves than I ever could.

 I’m  pretty happy that Google index cannot be hacked because when you get to the bottom of this you are going to find that I was telling the truth and that there is no way I would falsify in any way those quotes.

Thanks for your help..

John

From Bill Irvine:
 

John... We're here to help... after all our work together, it was rather disheartening to see your assertion that we were somehow favoring one side of an issue and ignoring insults. Bill

From Bill Irvine:
 

Hi John... I've been having similar conversations with David and Jeff about the Meier thread and their personal frustrations related to trying to address the issues. In short we have a promise from them to generally avoid the topic as much as possible, as well as work harder on the tone of their contributions. Similarly, I hope you can see the need to tone down the rhetoric as well... as there was no need to created a post that essentially "called out" site management for not noticing what you thought to be insults. If we can all agree to move on, then the posting bans can be lifted, no one will know this happened in the public forum... and life marches on. On a side note... John, my man, you of all people should have skin so thick you break needles. >From my vantage point (and Mark from what he was able to see), the comments you attributed to Jeff seemed mostly generalized and rhetorical... not focused on specific members. While there certainly still shouldn't be broad-stroke statements that might disparage a large segment of ATS visitors... we generally don't treat such statements as seriously as direct personal attacks... and they should have just bounced right off that thick skin of yours. ;) Please, please, please... in the future, alert staff and let us deal with any problems that might crop up. It's impossible for us to read every thread and notice every post so we rely on our members to tap on our shoulders when something's going wrong. Thanks Bill

On Jan 28, 2008, at 3:51 PM, John Lear wrote:

Wait just a minute here Bill. First things first. Were my quotations accurate or not?

Who fraudulently edited the posts?

Thanks,

John

From Bill Irvine:
 

John... whoops... sorry... I didn't realize I didn't send you what we discovered. It turns out that Jeff admitted to posting pretty much what you attributed... and later had second thoughts and removed them. Which is why the material never showed up in the Google Cache (it generally takes 4-6 hours for a new post to be archived by Google). No fraud. Bill

On Jan 28, 2008, at 4:36 PM, John Lear wrote:

(answers by Bill Irvine)

Bill,

No. 1  What do you mean “pretty much”? Are you saying I modified those posts?

No. Not at all... what made you think that?

No 2  Does Jeff have mod privileges?

No, but from my understanding he modified the posts within the edit window.

THEN WHO did it for him? It had to be a mod. See what I mean?

Not really... all of his posts have his own edit time-stamp. It's impossible to modify a post without the person making the modification leaving a trace.

On Jan 28, 2008, at 9:36 PM, John Lear wrote:

Bill,

Here is your email from this morning:

Hi John...

Your U2U function should be working fine. I've not done anything to prevent you from sending U2U's.

In any event, I and several mods went through the quotes and have been unable to locate most of them... for example...

"You're not getting another goddamned reply." (jritzmann) You can search the entire site(s) for that quote with this lnk:

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&rls=en&q=%22not+getting
+another+goddamned+reply%22+jritzmann&btnG=Search

-- or this one:

"I'm done with his sorry ass and this case" (jritzmann) Search link:

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&rls=en&q=%22done+with+his
+sorry+ass+and+this+case%22+jritzmann&btnG=Search

The only time we locate any of the statements attributed to Ritzmann or Biedny is within your post. (with the exception of two)

I'm sorry you're feeling embarrassed about this, which is why we've not done anything that would be visible in a public way about your post or our need to have a look.

If you can help us determine what is going on, that'd be a hugh help.

Thanks,

Bill

Here is what I found.

JL

"ANY yutz with functioning eyes and brain can take one look" (David Biedny) page 9 January 26 2:48PM

"Only the most gullible yokels find this "case" to be compelling" (David Biedny) Page 9 January 26 2:48PM

"…you'd have to be stupid to find this image convincing." (David Biedny) Page 9 Janaury 26 2:48PM
 

posted on 26-1-2008 @ 02:48 PM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: Lear, We have indeed debunked any number of the Meier photos. I took one in particular and tore it apart, Jeff has done a number of them. I've clearly shown, in the photo I debunked, the black cloth that the "light fixture/ship" was propped on, as well as the fact that there are no light reflections on the cars beneath it. My findings are on the Paracast forums for all to see. ANY yutz with functioning eyes and brain can take one look at the "night-time" "wedding cake" shot, and see the miniature car and tree, and the fact that the scene is being illuminated by photo spots, they are clearly reflecting in the spheres. Lack of depth of field, lack of atmospheric density, hell, man, you'd have to be stupid to find this image convincing. The idea of having to go to Switzerland to debunk photos is obviously devoid of any flavor of logic, as is the notion that we should replicate them in order to show how they were done. Regardless, Jeff has already done that, with more than one photo. And the model you've made fun of - well, it was built by one of the best model guys in the industry - Ray Harryhausen - so if you feel comfortable denigrating the efforts of one of the greatest visual effects experts of all time, well, what can I say? Only the most gullible yokels find this "case" to be compelling in any fashion, it would be so sad to see someone of your intelligence dumped in that box, dontcha think? Meanwhile, HornDog has publicly stated that the photos are not even important, it's the prophecies. And when that fails, it's the philosophy. And after that, who knows, the pickled cabbage and peppermint shnaps shots, whatever it takes to make anyone believe in this nonsense. Meanwhile, as it's already been pointed out, you did not answer my simple question. Perhaps you're not capable of answering a direct question, too much jet fuel over the years? dB [edit on 26-1-2008 by davidbiedny] [edit on 26-1-2008 by davidbiedny] [edit on 26-1-2008 by davidbiedny] [edit on 26-1-2008 by davidbiedny]

"…but there's no fool like an old fool." (David Biedny) Page 9 January 26 3:47PM
 

give this post a star posted on 26-1-2008 @ 03:47 PM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: There's an old saying: "Living like an ostrich, with it's head in the sand." Denial is a sad thing, it's likely the cause of much of the sadness and adversity of our culture. One would expect older folks to have learned something substantial about the state of the world, but there's no fool like an old fool, so they say. dB

"Give me a f&*$^ break!" (MANNYP4) Page 9 January 26 7:24PM
 

posted on 26-1-2008 @ 07:24 PM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: I saw the new dvd (free of course) and there is absolutely "nothing" new in it, it's just a cheap video recording of Mh going on radio interviews. No new photos, no new info, nada just the same yada yada he always does. If Jeff or other skeptics only use those web photos, it's because for all we know there were never originals submitted by Meier. “Wonder why?” Stop saying that already! Do you have any non web photos to present? I thought so!!! And guess what? Those same web photos are the same ones that he is “selling” in the "NEW DVD." Anything to say? Please stop with the comments about how people have not gone to Switzerland to investigate Meier! What kind of sick joke is that? "HELLO YOU HAVEN'T GONE EITHER!" So WHAT'S THE GAME ABOUT? Why insist on having Jeff duplicate the wcufo? Are you getting a cut of the dvd sales profit or something? I mean demanding that is just MH strategy to continue doing promotions for this hoax (there is not a single time where he doesn't mention Jeff because he has no material left, the hoax is dead). Everyone knows this already. Can you duplicate Jeff’s photos? If you can't then that means they are real! See the logic here? Give me a f&*$^ break! Jeff already proved that the effect Meier did was just a "False Perspective.” He doesn't need to proof anything else. There is a guy with something in his hands doing a ring of fire by moving it around and they call that a ufo and ask you to pay for it, and you still don't say anything about it? You haven't seen the dvd, did you? It's understandable as it’s a waste of time and you know it. Again it's just Mh videotaping himself going on radio interviews and it contains the same "WEB PHOTOS" and same information as always. It should be called "PAY ME TO SEE ME TALKING ABOUT MEIER AGAIN". Dereck if you had a verbal agreement with Mh about being included into the main video, maybe you can sue him. The way he made it is obviously misleading by just trying to answer your explanations with nonsense like always. He doesn't know anything about photos, videos, sound or nothing (this is not a fingernail case). He only keeps misquoting people from 40 years ago. Why doesn't he present new material with new investigators it’s 2008 now MH, show us something new, I dare you! Like a new scientific analysis? Of course he wouldn't, he knows better. No scientists or expert in 2008 would say anything good after reviewing those obviously “False Perspective” photos. All the experts to who MH presents the photos to at present time (2008) will always say that it’s a hoax! Claiming that an expert said positive things about the Meier case is not sufficient, why can’t the expert himself come forth and publicly say it? Like when you showed it to David Biedny and he showed us all that it was a complete fraud. Thanks David! To all Meier supporters, please don't respond unless you comment on the photo of the ring of fire with the guy in the middle of it. This should be fun although I think any lame excuses should work for them. Like the lame excuse when he got caught using garbage parts and said that they transmitted thoughts into garbage manufacturers!!! That’s why they look the same, lol for the love of sanity. Trying to argue with people that can believe that is just useless.

"By arguing with morons" (jritzmann) Page 9 January 27 9:48PM

"You're not getting another goddamned reply." (jritzmann) Page 9 January 27 9:48
 

posted on 27-1-2008 @ 09:48 AM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: People please. Look what we're doing. By arguing with morons we get tarred by the same brush. There's no more to say, and I for one have done all I intend to do. You post whats asked for, and it's ignored and more and more is demanded. On what planet does this make sense? This is up to them to prove, not us. Arguing this stupid excuse for a case as I told Derek the other night on the phone, is highly seductive. Because it's so easy, and you always wonder what the proponents like Horn are going to come back with next. When it comes back, it's so outrageous and most times untruthful, you cant help but reply. And thats exactly what they want. At this point they've run out of fuel. One need only look at the newly released "film" to see that. Like my Pop used to say, "leave them enough rope and they hang themselves". Derek will get all my info for IIG and he'll get his own info up as well. There's nothing more to be said. So go ahead and throw the next barb Lear, or whomever. You're not getting another goddamned reply. I've answered everything since C2C a week ago, and thats enough. [edit

"…this case is hogwash...you're an idiot" (jritzmann) Page 8 January 25 10:57PM

"I'm done with his sorry ass and this case" (jritzmann) Page 8 January 25 10:57PM
 

posted on 25-1-2008 @ 10:57 AM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: More Horn whining and nonsense, this time by a sock puppet (which I didn't think was allowed here). Hey, he can drone on all he wants...I'm done with his sorry ass and this case, as there's nothing more for me to say, I've said it all here and answered every question as best I know how. I posted pictures duplicated (at Horn's challenge) over, and over, and over, and a page later some "film expert" says they cant be done as small models on a line w/ a camera. I'm sick to death of it. What Horn tries to do in his repeated questions and outright bull**t is to bait you into more controversy. One only need listen to C2C the other night to see how many times Knapp said "well that causes a lot of argument" or something to that effect, and Horn's reply was "thats good". Sure it is, it's more publicity for him...and I think most of us who witnessed his last appearance on ATS can attest to his apparent desire for negative attention. I got quite a laugh when George Knapp mentioned my name on C2C to Horn and Horn seemed to have an issue making words with his mouth (uuuh). George had to tell him that he wasn't bringing me on, and when coming back from the break mentioned Horn seemed a bit bothered by the idea that he might. I haven't laughed that hard in regard to anything Meier in awhile...well until Derek posted those sparky disc shots....OMFG. I won't be a part to that controversy anymore. You all will think I'm kidding when I tell you after awhile it makes you feel dirty even talking to these people...but it does me. If someone ever asks me about the case, I wont ignore them...but as far as any more investigation of claims or image analysis...fuggetaboutit. I've done more then enough for any intelligent guy or gal to make up their own mind. Derek (IIG) will always have my respect for allowing himself to be filmed for this "production", as I'd have no more gotten involved with Horn on a project then jump off a bridge. Past the facts, it's only adding more noise to the already drowned UFO signal. Nobody needs that who actually cares about finding answers (or whatever we think we're looking for). And, as I said above, if anyone believes the sparking discs pictures Derek posted *right from the film*, is proof of the reality of Meier's claims and points to anything but that this case is hogwash...you're an idiot (and I mean that in the sense that you don't really think, and you're brain is clearly not working), and you definitely got bigger issues then placing belief in Meier. All the barbs and names I've been called by Horn and the Meierites, are like badges of honor (knowing how the majority of the UFO community feels about the case). As the old military pilots used to say: You don't get that kind of flak unless you're close to the target. Anyway, this has gotta be it for me in this thread, as I've already added more then I wanted to, to the Meier promo machine. I just felt members deserved answers about the C2C episode. Ok? Lets go on to truly interesting events and cases and leave this where it belongs in the dust...there's a lot of stuff going on that needs our attention. ~J [edit on 25-1-2008 by jritzmann] [edit on 25-1-2008 by jritzmann]

"They want to lap up the pap spewed by the son of the jetman?" (David Biedny) Page 6 January 21 7:57PM
 

posted on 21-1-2008 @ 07:57 PM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: Jeff, my brother... Let's leave this nonsense behind us, Lear wants to scream that the Meier crap is real, let him, I think it's time to bid this board adieu and move onto greener pastures. You did exactly what Horn challenged you to do, and he drags your name through the mud for it. Horn was banned from these forums because of his psychotic, abusive behavior, as he has been from just about every forum he's infected. If folks can't look at the "wedding cake" stupidity and see the lights used to shoot THE MODEL reflected in the spheres, then they're never going to understand why these photos are so ridiculous. I personally deconstructed a FAKED photo in response to Horn's challenge, and then he proceeded to spout the most amazingly ridiculous lies and fabrication on The Paracast forums - it's all there for anyone to see. He makes up witnesses, can't back anything up with a single actual notarized document, and people want to take this moron seriously? I say let them have the whole enchilada. It's often said that societies get the governments they deserve, and it seems that the majority of this community seems to want to believe in garbage, regardless of what their eyes and brains tell them. Belief is for the weak, those who can't use their own minds and intuition to see through the noise and arrive at some actual understanding of the paranormal. They want to look at the ridiculous wedding cake toys and believe they're extraterrestrials? They want to lap up the pap spewed by the son of the jetman? Let them, you and I are on a quest for truth and actual wisdom, we know all about the masses and their extreme sense of denial, they are not going to suddenly wake up and see the world as it is, they will only ever see what their insecurities demand of them. They are not seeking the truth - they could probably never really face it, if it meant leaving behind everything they believe, or want to believe. Jeff, you and I have both seen things that most people here are so desperate to experience, we know how these things can totally screw up your life, we've had to adapt to this new reality and we've both been through the ringer with the two opposing sides - the debunkers who can't think outside of their educations and cultural conditioning, and the wide-eyed believers who will buy into any nonsense delivered by a slick scamster. We have battled with both sides - you've been doing this MUCH longer than me, and I don't for the life of my understand how or why - but at a certain point, you have to say, enough is enough. You & I know damn well why Lear is doing and saying certain things, we know what motivates Horn and the other Meierites, and we know that all of these people can give us exactly NO insight or information, besides demonstrating the ignorance of the masses. Jeff, you know I am with you all the way, until we get some answers. Let's learn to ignore the noise, and find the signal. dB [edit on 21-1-2008 by davidbiedny] [edit on 21-1-2008 by davidbiedny] [edit on 21-1-2008 by davidbiedny]

"…anyone putting any stock in this crap is an idiot." (jritzmann) Page 6, January 23 7:22PM

"I cannot believe the balls these people got." (jritzmann) Page 6, January 23, 7:22PM
 

posted on 23-1-2008 @ 07:22 PM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: reply to post by derekcbart Derek, thats hysterical as hell. As far as I'm concerned, anyone putting any stock in this crap is an idiot. That there takes the cake and then some. I cannot believe the balls these people got expecting anyone to believe it...it's almost like they wanna get caught, or just know their customers. ~J

"My work in debunking this crap is well known." (jritzmann) Page 2 January 20 11:57PM

"…stop being such a B.S'.er." (jritzmann)Page 2 Januiary 20 11:57PM
 

posted on 20-1-2008 @ 11:57 PM     single    this post  "quote"REPLY TO: Originally posted by johnlear JRitzman never complied with or proved 'chain of evidence' of the photos he worked with. He used photos he obtained on the web. He never met Billy Meiers, he never went to Switzerland, he never went to the area the photos were allegedly taken and he never obtained photo direct from BillyMeiers camera. Interesting John, how exactly do you know what I used? You know where I went and whom I spoke to? What, you psychic now too? Lemme remind you of something, sir, neither did Dilettoso. One need not go to any location nor speak to anyone, when you see such obvious signs of foolery. My work in debunking this crap is well known, and posted here...stop being such a B.S'.er. ~J

Bill,

You and Mark are going on my shit list as of today. You caused me a lot of unnecessary grief by your hip shot, and unwarranted accusations.

Here is why you caused me grief.

I knew that I had not fabricated the quotes and I knew that you said that you could not find them. I trusted you and so I knew the only explanation was complicity of a mod to edit the quotes. That would have been a very serious breach of integrity, trust and honesty with the ATS staff.

When I got ready to do the archive search I went back to be sure they couldn't be found. Crap. I found every single one of them with the exception of one.

I am thankful that it didn't turn out to be a dishonest moderator. Just an incompetent search crew.

I can't tell you how long you will be on my shit list it will depend on how you handle this.

John Lear

From Bill Irvine:
 

Mon 1/28/2008 6:43 PM This is a resolved issue. Jeff has admitted to posting, and will ensure to contain his comments in the future. Bill

From Mark Allin:
 

Mon 1/28/2008 9:01 PM Why the HELL would I be on your shitty shit list? I’ve been WORKING ALL fucking day! lol Best Regards, Mark W. Allin

I said I wouldn't comment but I will make just one.

I didn't agree to this cover-up request by Bill Irvine so I guess that's why I am banned:

"If we can all agree to move on, then the posting bans can be lifted, no one will know this happened in the public forum... and life marches on."

John Lear

Las Vegas

February 14, 2008